Correction: In my prior post where I said "... the son Jesse ..." I meant to say "... the son of Jesse ...".
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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5
On the Deuteronomist history (And the majority of the prophets) A shocking discovery this morning
by HowTheBibleWasCreated inevery now and then i come ac ross a person in ancient times that blows my mind.
for instance at one time i agreed with many that in 175bce antiochus place a statute of zeus in the temple and nothing was there before.
but lo and behold several sources from then claim that before zeus was an idol of set-typhon in the temple (synchronism) it was really judas maccabee and his family that were the original 'deuteronomists' (not josiah).
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Disillusioned JW
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5
On the Deuteronomist history (And the majority of the prophets) A shocking discovery this morning
by HowTheBibleWasCreated inevery now and then i come ac ross a person in ancient times that blows my mind.
for instance at one time i agreed with many that in 175bce antiochus place a statute of zeus in the temple and nothing was there before.
but lo and behold several sources from then claim that before zeus was an idol of set-typhon in the temple (synchronism) it was really judas maccabee and his family that were the original 'deuteronomists' (not josiah).
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Disillusioned JW
Regarding me a few days ago thinking I had read the Bible say David was a son a Saul, I think that I had misread a verse while skimming quickly through the book of 1 Samuel. 1 Samuel 16:20 (NASB - Updated Edition) says "Jesse ... to Saul by David his son." The reference to "his son" is speaking of the son Jesse, but perhaps it could be argued that the Deuteronomist modified that verse to have it say (or seem to say) that David was the son of Jesse instead of Saul.
HowTheBibleWasCreated, is there a verse in the Bible which says, or implies, that David was the son (not the Son-Law) of Saul? If so, what verse is it?
Thanks for mentioning that Eupolemus wrote that David was the son of Saul. That was new information to me. Today I searched for details about that and the following are some things I found.
http://graceandknowledge.faithweb.com/Eupolemus.html says: 'Moving on to what Eupolemus had to say about the reign of Saul’s successor David, it is noteworthy that Eupolemus calls David the “son” of King Saul rather than “son-in-law.” A later manuscript of Eusebius’ Praeparatio Evangelica, shows an alternate reading here of “son-in-law,” but that is most likely a scribal gloss that brought Eupolemus’ text back into explicit accordance with biblical history. It is possible that when Eupolemus called David the son of Saul, he only meant that David was Saul’s successor and had a familial relationship with him (along the lines of Daniel 5:13, where Nebuchadnezzar is said to be the “father” of his descendant and successor Belshazzar son of Nabonidus – cf. Baruch 1:11). Another hypothesis is that it was Polyhistor who mistakenly called David the son of Saul as he quickly scanned Eupolemus to make an epitome of his text. However, Wacholder proposed (pages 130-131) that Eupolemus may have intentionally altered the relationship of David and Saul in order to elide the historical accounts of David’s rivalry with Saul and Saul’s son Ishbosheth. As we shall see, Eupolemus adopted a rather free approach to interpreting and relating Israel’s history.'
https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/eupolemus says: "Fragment 2 is the longest single remnant of a Greco-Jewish text prior to *Philo. The reigns of Joshua, Samuel, and Saul and his son (sic) David are all mentioned briefly."
https://thebiblicalreview.wordpress.com/tag/hellenistic/ seems to be the web page you found about what Eupolemus wrote. I notice that it says in the part the following:
'Eupolemus was a Jewish-hellenistic historian in the 2nd century BCE. and wrote work entitled On the Kings in Judea. The only surviving fragments are from Alexander Polyhistor’s On the Jews, preserved by Clement of Alexandria (c. CE 150-216) and Eusebius of Caesarea (c. CE 260-340).
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Fragment 2 historiographically traces the lineage of prophets and kings in the early Judean monarchy. Eupolemus traces it as follows:
- Moses: Prophesied for 40 years
- Joshua son of Nun: Prophesied for 30 years and established a sacred tabernacle at Shiloh.
- Samuel: Prophetic reign is not given a period of time.
- Saul: By the will of God, Samuel chooses Saul to be king, and Saul rules for 21 years, then dies.
- David: According to Polyhistor, David son of Saul becomes king, subdues the region through warfare, and dies.
- Solomon: Reigns and builds the temple until the end of Fragment 2.
Historiography and Re-appropriation
Anybody who knows their Bible 101 recognizes that this history of the Judean kings is highly idealized. Already the Deuteronomistic Historian [1] and Chronicle each have unique trajectories and historiographical aims. Each re-appropriates the narrative of the emergence of the ancient Israelite monarchy for their own aims. Eupolemus’s Fragment 2 contributes to an alternative approaches to ancient Israel’s history written for a unique audience.
Based on this idea, I wonder what happens if we choose to understand David as Saul’s son not a scribal error [2].
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2] “Eupolemus”, tranlsation and commentary by F. Fallon, ed. James Charlesworth, The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha vol. 2 (Peabody: Hendrickson Publishers, 1983), 861-872, Fragment 2, n. g, comments that the “error in identifying David as Saul’s son is probably due to a misunderstanding by Alexander Plyhistory. MS B has corrected the error to son-in-law”.'
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On the Deuteronomist history (And the majority of the prophets) A shocking discovery this morning
by HowTheBibleWasCreated inevery now and then i come ac ross a person in ancient times that blows my mind.
for instance at one time i agreed with many that in 175bce antiochus place a statute of zeus in the temple and nothing was there before.
but lo and behold several sources from then claim that before zeus was an idol of set-typhon in the temple (synchronism) it was really judas maccabee and his family that were the original 'deuteronomists' (not josiah).
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Disillusioned JW
Regarding the idea of David being the son of Saul, a couple of days I was reading parts of Rutherford's book Religion and looking up Bible verses quoted by it pertaining to Saul and the witch (spirit medium) of Endor. While reading the context of those verses I thought I read something which said that David was Saul's son, but I didn't spend much thought on that apparent observation.
By the way, 1 Chronicles disagrees with 1 Samuel regarding whether Saul inquired of YHWH/Jehovah or not before visiting the witch (spirit medium). Also the account (by the writer of the account) is making the claim that the medium really did see the spirit of Samuel (and not some demonic imposter of Samuel) and that Saul really did hear and have a conversation with the spirit of Samuel.
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Why Is The Press Suddenly Exposing The Biden Family?
by minimus inthe new york post published how hunter biden was involved with many criminal activities.
they showed how big daddy biden was well aware of what was going on.
the post got called out for this “ non story “.
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Disillusioned JW
I posted it to multiple boards to partially counteract the numerous negative posts on those boards; I wanted to make sure the people posting to each of those boards saw the post. I think the poll results mentioned in the article are accurate, since I know that the AP is a very reliable pollster.
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Neanderthals carb loaded, helping grow their big brains
by Disillusioned JW insee https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/05/neanderthals-carb-loaded-helping-grow-their-big-brains .
the article says in part 'the study is “groundbreaking,” says harvard university evolutionary biologist rachel carmody, who was not part of the research.
the work suggests the ancestors of both humans and neanderthals were cooking lots of starchy foods at least 600,000 years ago.
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Disillusioned JW
See https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/05/neanderthals-carb-loaded-helping-grow-their-big-brains . The article says in part 'The study is “groundbreaking,” says Harvard University evolutionary biologist Rachel Carmody, who was not part of the research. The work suggests the ancestors of both humans and Neanderthals were cooking lots of starchy foods at least 600,000 years ago. And they had already adapted to eating more starchy plants long before the invention of agriculture 10,000 years ago, she says.'
The article (in the above quote) has an error in suggesting that Neanderthals were not humans. Neanderthals were also humans, though possibly not a subspecies of our species (Homo sapiens) of humans. Neanderthals were in our genus, Homo, and as such they were humans. That is because the word Latin Homo means "Human/Man" and the word Homo as used in taxonomy means "Human/Man". [See https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homo and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo .] There is also genetic evidence that our species (or sub species of Homo sapiens) interbred with the Neanderthals and produced viable offspring - many of us carry some Neanderthal genes.
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Is There Life On Mars?
by LoveUniHateExams inno, i'm not talking about the david bowie song, i'm asking does life exist on mars?.
opportunity rover (the one before the present one) took photos of strange, puffball-like sphericals seemingly sprouting on the martian surface.. these photos aren't conclusive evidence but it is an exciting area to investigate.. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-9546225/scientists-claim-evidence-fungi-red-planet.html .
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Disillusioned JW
Based upon the science articles and books I have read I believe there is microscopic life of some kind (maybe bacteria or something like it, fungi, and/or a taxonomic kingdom that doesn't exist on Earth) on Mars, more than five decimeters below the surface in some areas and/or in a cave (if Mars has caves). -
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Awake Magazine - No Longer Being Printed?
by JWTom insomeone made reference in another post that the awake magazine had ceased publication.
maybe i missed it since i have not been on here as much in the last 6 months.
is this true?
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Disillusioned JW
Regarding "Got rid of DOs" what is meant by "DOs"?
Is it really true that practically all the young JWs are leaving once they turn 18 years old?
Before the Society downsized (and dumbed down) the science content of the 'Awake!" I appreciated the bound volumes of the Awake! more than the vast majority of the other books of the WT Society. I sold off nearly all of my WT bound volumes but I retained bound volumes for the years 1966 - 2008 (many of those I bought used after I stopped attending the Kingdom Hall).
Regarding the Babylon the Great Has Fallen book I sold my copy of it on eBay years ago, but now I kind of miss it (though I can read it online and on the WT CD-ROM library). I had bought my copy at a thrift store because when I tried to order it (or was that the Then is Finished the Mystery of God book instead?) from the Society more than 20 years ago it was too late since the WT had ceased publishing it. Yesterday I noticed that nice condition copies of it sell for at least $15 (including shipping costs) on eBay. Maybe I once had a copy of the Babylon the Great Has Fallen when I was under 10 years old; I'm not sure.
Kingdom Halls will probably reopen soon since things are starting to turn somewhat back to normal now that much of the USA population has received a Covid-19 vaccination.
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What is your status (as of today) as a Jehovah's Witness?
by RULES & REGULATIONS inactive believer...still attend meetings, go out in field service, believe it's ''the truth''.
active non-believer... go to meetings and field service to please family... living a double life .
inactive believer...don't attend meetings but believe it's the truth, one day might go back to kingdom hall.
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Disillusioned JW
I am in category number 4.
I want a very high percentage of human society, especially in my country, to voluntarily become nonreligious and to not believe in the supernatural (nor any superstitions) at all, but with people living by some version of the golden rule. I think about how Christianity/Christendom held back scientific, technological, and social progress for about 1,000 years and I imagine what human society would now be if Christianity had never existed. See https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/15567 .
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I Will Give President Biden Credit
by minimus inhe’s really implementing the democrats agenda!
he’s wasting no time !.
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Disillusioned JW
Correction: In my prior post where I said "... my sisters ..." I meant to say "... my sister ...". The last paragraph of my prior post should probably be re-punctuated and reworded as the following:
"I know a number of poor people in my community who are receiving government assistance of various kinds. Many of them are over 70 years old with infirmities, or are both over age 70 and are retired. Many though under age 60 are: physically disabled (sometimes from a severe accident) or mentally ill; or have major health problems, such: as diabetes (sometimes due to their dietary choices, but sometimes due to their genetics), obesity (sometimes due to their eating habits but not always), or lung disease (most of these are smokers of various substances). Some have lost their job/career and their house (or apartment unit) and are wanting to obtain a good job and a house (or apartment unit) again. Some of them vote for Republican Party candidates and some others of them vote for Democratic Party candidates. Some have a college/university degree (and some of those once had a high paying highly skilled job, such as having been a computer software programmer) and some others never attended a college/university." To me, some seem of be low intelligence but some others seem to be of high intelligence, whereas most seem to be of 'average' intelligence. Some of the ones working full-time at my place of work are single parent mothers whose boyfriend or husband left them and their child (and in other cases maybe the mothers thought it was best to leave the father of their child/children)."
The vast majority of the homeless ones I see living 'on the street' (many in tents) are men and I wonder why that is the case.
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I Will Give President Biden Credit
by minimus inhe’s really implementing the democrats agenda!
he’s wasting no time !.
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Disillusioned JW
Anony Mous, thanks for your post stating the documentation for your views. I notice that while we agree that certain government policies are in place (such as section 8, child support, tax breaks and other left-wing policies), we differ greatly in our ideas of the interpretation of the policies. I perceive the intent of the policies you mention to be what the politicians/government saying they are for, namely to help people who are in need and in dire straits. You instead perceive they are for something radically different, namely to keep people in need and in dire straits - to trap them into remaining in such a deplorable state. It is like, figuratively speaking, that we are living in two different worlds. We do agree however that one of the reasons for these programs by the Democrats is to gain and keep voters. It will likely be hard for us to reach agreement/consensus as to what is the intent of these programs.
Maybe part of the reason we see things differently (besides us probably coming from very different social-economic demographic backgrounds), is that I tend towards interpreting written and spoken statements very literally and I tend to believe people mean what they say, unless I later discover evidence that they are untrustworthy. [My literal thinking approach when applied to understanding the Bible is one of the main things which led me to eventually disagreeing with many of the Watchtower's interpretations of biblical prophecies and thus also to me ceasing to believe in their religion.]
President John Kennedy said he wanted to help struggling people and President Lyndon B. Johnson said he wanted to create a society in which poverty would be eradicated. Johnson said he wanted to create a great society. As a result many government spending programs, with the stated aim of helping poor people, were created during the Johnson administration. Me, my sisters, my mother, and mother's mother and step-father (all JWs, except that I am now unofficially an ex-JW) believe that the programs were created to help people - not to hold them back from making progress.
I know a number of poor people in my community who are receiving government assistance of various kinds. Many of them are over 70 years old with infirmities, many though under age 60 are physically disabled (sometimes from a severe accident) or mentally ill. Some have major health problems, such as diabetes (sometimes due to their dietary choices, but sometimes due to their genetics), obesity (sometimes due to their eating habits but not always), or lung disease (most of these are smokers of various substances), Some have lost their job and their house or apartment and are wanting to obtain a good job and a house or apartment again. Some of them vote for Republican Party candidates and some others of them vote for Democratic Party candidates. Some have a college/university degree (and some of those once had a high paying highly skilled job) and some others never attended a college/university.